The proceedings are
reported in the language in which they were spoken in the
committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous
interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied
corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the
transcript.
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:04.
The meeting began at 09:04.
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Cyflwyniad,
Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datganiadau o Fuddiant
Introduction, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of
Interest
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[1]
Mike Hedges: Bore da, good morning. Can I welcome everyone to the
meeting and remind you that you’re welcome to speak in either
English or Welsh? Headsets are available for translation of Welsh
to English. There’s no need to turn off your mobile phones or
other electronic devices, but please ensure that devices are in
silent mode. We’re all here, so there are no
apologies.
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Deisebau Newydd
New Petitions
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[2]
Mike Hedges: The first item is new petitions. The first one
is ‘Lack of support for children with disabilities at
crisis.’ The petition that was submitted collected 200
signatures. A first-consideration letter was sent to the Cabinet
Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport on 27 March and a
response was received on 11 May. We’ve had a research
briefing and a response from the petitioner is also included in the
papers for the meeting. So, what do we want to do? The
petitioner’s experience is that while child and adolescent
mental health services have been supportive, there appears to be a
lack of capacity and resources there, which I’m sure other
people have had experience of. The Cabinet Secretary has outlined
additional funding provided. We could write to the Cabinet
Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport to share the experiences
of the petitioner and ask whether it is typical across Wales for
children with learning difficulties not to be able to access CAMHS
crisis care teams, and whether there are any plans to expand access
to these services. When we get that reply, we can send it back to
the petitioner and hopefully we can get some progress. Everybody
happy with that?
|
[3]
‘Statue to Honour Billy Boston’ collected 151
signatures. The difficulty comes in funding. The Cabinet Secretary
has said how they could seek funding. The research brief provides
additional information, and from personal experience, I know that
we collected money in Swansea to put a statue up of Ivor Allchurch,
and I think that does seem to be the traditional route of it being
led by voluntary bodies. Whether the arts council could actually
provide some money is another matter. I know you want to speak on
this, Neil.
|
[4]
Neil McEvoy: Yes. I mentioned this in the Chamber a while
back, and I think I’d like to see the Minister taking a lead
on it, really. As well as being the Minister, he’s also the
AM for the area where Billy came from—one of the biggest
names in Welsh rugby league. I think if times had been different,
he probably would have been a renowned Welsh rugby union
international, but in those days, being black, basically, made life
a lot more difficult than it does nowadays. And I think he is so
recognised in England. The only place he isn’t recognised is
in Wales, almost. So yes, I’m keen to support this, and
hopefully get the Minister to take a lead on it.
|
[5]
Mike Hedges: So, if we write to the petitioners to share the
information we’ve received so far and let them come back to
us if they want to take it any further. But I would have thought
that they’d be able, by public subscription, to collect
money, as we did for Ivor, and I think Cardiff City did for Fred
Keenor. Happy with that? Okay.
|
[6]
‘Re-open the Cwmcarn Forest Drive
at Easter 2018’ collected 1,097 online signatures and 352
paper signatures. We wrote to the Cabinet Secretary on 24 April,
and received a response on 9 May. We’ve had a research
briefing. A response from the petitioner has been received and is
included in the papers. We could write to the Cabinet Secretary for
Environment and Rural Affairs to ask if the Welsh Government has
considered providing funding to Natural Resources Wales to support
the re-opening of the forest drive to vehicles, and to highlight
the petitioner’s concern about the timescales for the
proposed study. Are we happy to do that? Yes.
|
[7]
‘Stop Compulsory Welsh Language
GCSE’ collected 128 signatures. The Cabinet Secretary has
stated that she has no plans to change established Welsh Government
policy for study of the Welsh language to be compulsory up to key
stage 4. She has outlined the benefit to learners. We await the
views of the petitioners on the response received from the Cabinet
Secretary. The petitioners haven’t come back to us. I’m
not sure there’s going to be a meeting of minds on this,
but—
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[8]
Gareth Bennett:
I think you can tell that the Government
isn’t going to do anything to change this, but it’s
interesting, because there is a lot of support for not having Welsh
as a compulsory subject, I know. Lots of people mention it, so I
don’t know if it’s something that should be discussed
further, but obviously most of the parties in the Assembly—.
I don’t know what the Tory view on this is. I know Labour and
Plaid aren’t going to do anything about changing
it.
|
[9]
Mike Hedges: Or the Lib Dems.
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[10]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
We’ve had a lot of concerns raised
where they just change schools into Welsh-speaking.
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[11]
Neil McEvoy: For me, the English nationalism in Wales is very
worrying. Nobody would even mention stopping teaching English in
England. Do you stop teaching Spanish in Spain?
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[12]
Gareth Bennett:
Oddly, though, the majority language in
Wales is English.
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[13]
Mike Hedges: We can get involved in a long discussion about
languages—
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[14]
Neil McEvoy: There’s always consensus here, usually,
Chair, so—
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[15]
Mike Hedges: I don’t think we’re anywhere near
consensus, but one thing is we’ve got a way forward, where we
wait to see what the petitioner says about the response. What I
would say is that if you ask the average 16-year-old or
15-year-old, they’d probably give up maths and science before
they give up Welsh.
|
[16]
Neil McEvoy: Some of us, back in the day, like me,
didn’t have the opportunity to learn Welsh, and that was
outrageous, being brought up in Wales.
|
[17]
Gareth Bennett: I actually did get an O-level in Welsh, but
my experience was that most kids weren’t interested and they
dropped it.
|
[18]
Mike Hedges: Okay, anyway—
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[19]
Neil McEvoy: It’s the same with any subject, really,
isn’t it?
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[20]
Mike Hedges: We’ll move on—
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[21]
Janet Finch-Saunders: It’s a debate that
needs—[Inaudible.]
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[22]
Mike Hedges: Yes.
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09:10
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Y Wybodaeth
Ddiweddaraf am Ddeisebau Blaenorol Updates to Previous
Petitions
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[23]
Mike Hedges: Updates on previous petitions: environmental
and rural affairs—‘Unconventional Oil and Gas Planning
Applications’, which has got 1,254 online signatures and 293
paper signatures. The Wales Act 2017 devolves powers over licensing
for onshore oil and gas exploration, including shale oil and gas,
to the Welsh Government. These powers are expected in 2018. We
could write to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural
Affairs to ask what implications the devolution of further powers
over onshore oil and gas will have on Welsh Government policy. If
it’s going to be devolved, what’s their policy on it?
We’ve got a policy up till now, which is a bit confusing to
some, where they can have test drilling, but we oppose any action
to extract. I think that we need to find out if there’s any
change on that.
|
[24]
‘For single use items: Introduce a Deposit Return System for
drink containers and make fast food containers and utensils
compostable’. We’ve had just under 2,000
signatures.
|
[25]
Janet Finch-Saunders: This is something I’d like to
see go forward for further debate, generally. I think it’s a
huge issue and whilst we’re thinking about it and talking
about it, our beaches are becoming polluted. Our marine life is
suffering as a result of it, and I think that we could be a leading
nation, actually, in this.
|
[26]
Mike Hedges: Well, some of us are old enough to remember
Corona bottles and having to pay 5p and 10p deposits on them. And
some of us who were poor also remember wandering around the beach
collecting bottles to take back to shops. I think that we can write
to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs to seek
the clarifications requested by the petitioners, including whether
the planned reviews will include an evaluation of the prospects of
a deposit return scheme, and an assessment of the legislation
required, and—
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[27]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Can I tell you now, I think
legislation is required? Because, left as things are, more and more
are using this kind of damaging—
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[28]
Mike Hedges: We’ve also had substantial correspondence
from the Association of Convenience Stores and others—
|
[29]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Yes, I’m aware of
that—
|
[30]
Mike Hedges: But should we see what happens after
we’ve had this reply, and, if we are so minded, request a
debate?
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[31]
Janet Finch-Saunders: I’d like to do an inquiry
to—
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[32]
Mike Hedges: Request an inquiry and see what happens from
there.
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[33]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Definitely.
|
[34]
Mike Hedges: Yes, okay. So, we’ll do an inquiry.
|
[35]
Mr Francis: Do I write to the Cabinet Secretary first to get
a response as to—?
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[36]
Mike Hedges: Yes—
|
[37]
Janet Finch-Saunders: But that—. I’ve got to be
honest, I think we know that we’ll get a response back that
perhaps tries to pat us on the head and say, ‘We know
it’s a problem, but—’. I think that, you know, if
this committee is to have any teeth, we should take something like
this seriously. And, it’s fair to say that marine environment
isn’t high on the agenda of the Welsh Labour Government, and
I think it should be because our oceans, our beaches, our marine
life—we are damaging nature in a huge way, and it’s not
just that, it’s the untidiness, it’s how off-putting it
is to visitors. If you haven’t done a beach clean that
weekend, the beach can look horrendous. And in our hedgerows and
everything—. Really, really, it’s a big issue.
|
[38]
Neil McEvoy: Do you mind excusing me?
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[39]
Mike Hedges: Yes, okay. Fine, I will see you later.
|
[40]
Neil McEvoy: Yes, thank you.
|
[41]
Gareth Bennett: Actually, they’ve intimated they are
considering this at—. But they’re not—. Do you
think they’re just—?
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[42]
Janet Finch-Saunders: No, it’s not high on their
agenda at all, and it should be.
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[43]
Mike Hedges: Our way forward is to get a reply. If the
Government says they’re about to take action, then that means
that this will close.
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[44]
Janet Finch-Saunders: I’ll be happy if they say
they’ll bring in legislation, yes.
|
[45]
Mike Hedges: If they’re not, we can mount an inquiry.
Is everybody okay with that? Yes.
|
[46]
‘Guarantee good support close to home for disabled children
and their families’, with 2,606 signatures—
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09:15
|
[47]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Well, they haven’t responded,
have they?
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[48]
Mike Hedges: No.
|
[49]
Janet Finch-Saunders: This was opened in 2012. It needs to
close.
|
[50]
Mike Hedges: Yes. But, again, I think it’s a lesson to
us. We can’t just let petitions—
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[51]
Janet Finch-Saunders: No, we can’t sit on them. Either
we—
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[52]
Mike Hedges: Do something or don’t do something.
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[53]
Janet Finch-Saunders: —move them through the system,
and particularly if they don’t respond, they should be just
scrapped.
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[54]
Mike Hedges: Should we close this?
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[55]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Yes.
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[56]
Mike Hedges: ‘Routine Screening for Type 1 Diabetes in
Children and Young People’—
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[57]
Janet Finch-Saunders: I support this, yes.
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[58]
Mike Hedges: It was last considered on 13 February.
We’ve written to the Cabinet Secretary for health and social
care and sport to request that he consider a meeting with the
petitioners, and to all health boards to request more information
on their diagnosis and referral pathways. We’ve had
responses—nothing from Hywel Dda—
|
[59]
Janet Finch-Saunders: On this one, Chairman, it does worry
me that, again, it says—no consistency. What does it take,
really, for Government to sit up and listen? So, again, I think we
ought to be a little bit more robust on this.
|
[60]
Mike Hedges: One of the weaknesses of having a series of
health boards around Wales is you will not have consistency,
because although they all work to ministerial letters, they will
have their own local plans and that’s something that’s
a bit further than this petition. The—
|
[61]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Chairman, from my time on the Health
and Social Care Committee, what became quite evident to me was that
these local plans are very difficult for people to scrutinise or
challenge, because you try finding them on the websites and things
like that. As I say, we have sad history as to what’s gone
wrong here, and I think that, again, we should be taking this
seriously, with intervention at an earlier age.
|
[62]
Mike Hedges: Can I suggest that we try and arrange to invite
this petitioner and Diabetes UK to give evidence to the committee,
which will either be towards the end of this term or the beginning
of next term? Are we happy to do that?
|
[63]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Yes, if we can try and get it towards
the end of this term. Again, what we need to do as Petitions
Committee is, on the petitions that are valid, the ones where
they’re still engaging with us—
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[64]
Mike Hedges: Do something—
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[65]
Janet Finch-Saunders: —where it is an issue of such
national importance, I think we should be actually moving forward
with those.
|
[66]
Mike Hedges: Okay, thanks, Happy with that?
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[67]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Yes.
|
[68]
Mike Hedges: ‘Unacceptable Waiting Times for NHS
patients in A & E Wrecsam/Wrexham Maelor
Hospital’—first considered on 17 January, when it had
collected 14 signatures. We’ve had a response from the
Cabinet Secretary, the health board—
|
[69]
Janet Finch-Saunders: This is a problem we’ve
got—we’ve got it in the Betsi board.
|
[70]
Mike Hedges: Shall we write to the Cabinet Secretary for
health to ask whether A&E waiting times are continuing to
improve? There’s been an improvement, have they continued to
improve? If that’s the case, then we can write to the
petitioner and tell them. If they haven’t improved, then we
can decide what we’re going to do about it. Happy with
that?
|
[71]
Janet Finch-Saunders: I think we all challenge the health
Cabinet Secretary a lot on these types of issues.
|
[72]
Mike Hedges: ‘Road Safety Improvements Along the A487
Trunk Road between Cardigan and Aberystwyth, to Include Passing
Places’—back to September 2016, and last considered on
21 March. Shall we write to the Cabinet Secretary for an update on
the outcome of discussions between officials and Ceredigion council
as regards further improvements on the A487? Can I declare a
potential interest, as my daughter’s going to Bangor
University, so it’s a road I will probably be driving along a
lot over the next few years?
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[73]
Janet Finch-Saunders: We’ll see you more in north
Wales, then, Mike.
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[74]
Mike Hedges: You’ll see a lot of me in north Wales.
[Laughter.]
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[75]
‘Include a Mynachdy and Talybont Station as Part of the
Cardiff Metro Proposal’—first considered in November
2016.
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[76]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Cardiff council, have they responded?
Have we written to Cardiff council to see what their views are?
|
[77]
Mr Francis: We haven’t written to Cardiff council.
This is part of the Welsh Government’s national transport
finance plan around new stations. So, previously the Cabinet
Secretary had told us that he would update the committee. Since
then, there have been a couple of letters to Assembly Members about
the next stage, so taking forward 12 potential stations to a more
detailed assessment, but none in the area of this petition. So, at
stage 1, there was one proposed in Gabalfa. That one doesn’t
appear to have got past stage 1.
|
[78]
Mike Hedges: I think that there are two things we are
talking about. One is railway stations, and the other one is metro
stations, isn’t it? The metro system is going to come in
through there. I think we need to write to the Cabinet Secretary
for Economy and Infrastructure to get details on what consideration
has been given to a new station as part of the metro system.
|
[79]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
Yes, I would imagine it’s something
that Cardiff council and the Government can tease out between
them.
|
[80]
Mike Hedges: The difficulty that there is going to be with the
metro system is having enough stations for everybody to get on it,
but not having so many stations that it takes so long to travel
that people don’t use it.
|
[81]
Gareth Bennett:
Well, this is part of the problem with
the Valleys lines, because there are so many stations, it takes an
hour to get from Cardiff to Treherbert in the Rhondda valley. But
if you have lighter carriages, it is quicker acceleration, so there
are ways of doing it.
|
[82]
Mike Hedges: So, we can write and find out what proposals there
are for a metro station, because it is a metro station
they’re looking for, isn’t it, rather than a proper
railway station?
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[83]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
Okay. Fine.
|
[84]
Mike Hedges: It would be part of the metro system.
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[85]
‘Public Petition for the Dinas
Powys By-Pass’—we dealt with this, and I think many of
us received the petition. I know that two of your colleagues were
there, Janet. I can’t remember if you were there, but Andrew
R.T. Davies and David Melding were there. We’ve had a
response. At the moment, we’re in a situation where
we’ve also had a letter from the petitioners, where they
think there’s been a change of view on Vale of Glamorgan
Council on this. So, I suggest we write to the Vale of Glamorgan to
have clarification from the Vale of Glamorgan Council as to whether
they have actually changed their policy. Okay, happy with
that?
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[86]
‘Abolition of Park Homes Sales
Commission’—
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[87]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
It’s a big issue again—if
you’ve got them in your constituency it is.
|
[88]
Mike Hedges: I haven’t got any in my constituency, but it
does seem to me to be incredibly unfair.
|
[89]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
I know. Well, I sat on the committee when
the Bill was going through, you know, and—.
|
[90]
Mike Hedges: A public consultation is taking place, which closes
in August. So, shall we hold this petition until the results of the
public consultation and the Minister’s response?
Yes.
|
[91]
Before I close the meeting, can I say
that we were hoping to have representatives of Keep Music Alive
here today, but we’ve been unable to arrange that? I
don’t know what the current situation is.
|
[92]
Mr Francis: We are still awaiting a response from the petitioner
on that. If he responds to us and is available for the next
meeting, there is the possibility of having that evidence session
then, alongside the evidence session with the Government on British
Sign Language. If he doesn’t, we’ve also written on
behalf of the Chair to the Business Committee to ask for the time
to debate this petition because it received more than 5,000
signatures. So, we would hope to do that before the end of the
summer term, but if we can’t take evidence from the
petitioner on 27 June, there won’t be an opportunity to do
that before the debate.
|
[93]
Gareth Bennett:
Is this Richard Vaughan?
|
[94]
Mike Hedges: Yes.
|
[95]
Gareth Bennett:
But he hasn’t been
responding—because he’s been quite proactive with this.
I’m surprised he hasn’t been in touch.
|
[96]
Mike Hedges: We have asked for—. It has passed
5,000—the first one to do so—which I’m very
pleased to see, because I think that, once somebody gets 5,000,
there’s obviously a lot of interest. You can’t get
5,000 from friends and family, so there is obviously a lot of
interest that has been engendered in it. So, I hope that the
Business Committee will give us an opportunity to debate it
publicly.
|
[97]
Gareth Bennett:
I think there’s been an issue over
live music for about 20 years or more, with venues being closed
down because of complaints. So, you know, we’ve got the
devolved powers to do something to change the planning policy, and
I think it’s an issue that would resonate for a lot of
people.
|
[98]
Mike Hedges: I’m very interested in sport, for example, and
the number of people who move in next to cricket grounds and
football grounds and then complain about cricket balls and
footballs and the noise—. Well, they were there. It’s
the same thing if you move in next to a music venue—you can
obviously expect to hear music. You can’t move in next to a
music venue and then complain that it’s got noise. I live
near the M4. It’s pointless me complaining about the noise
from the M4—it was there when I moved in.
|
[99]
Gareth Bennett:
People used to move in to the streets
around Ninian Park, and they would complain about things to do with
the football ground. When the football ground was built in 1920,
there were no streets in that area. It was crazy. They built the
streets after they built the blimming football ground.
|
[100]
Mike Hedges: Okay, thank you all very much. We look forward to
meeting in a fortnight’s time.
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Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 09:25.
The meeting ended at 09:25.
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